Homosexuality in animals
Hi, please contribute to this new page. I'd particularly like us to have good documentation from webpages or journal articles, as this is a controvertial subject. Thnx! Mosquito ringtone Zandperl/zandperl 02:59, 24 Mar 2004
The article used the phrase "gay penguin" at one point. I decided to change it to "homosexual" (while restructuring the sentence), because the word "gay" is loaded (referring, in my understanding, to the idea that one can be homosexual and not unhappy about it). Where "faggot" is pejorative, "gay" is complimentary well, it was. "Gay" can be used pejoratively, too, but that's a recent development. Of course, "gay" is a common and acceptable term in reference to a human, so I would have no objection if it were. But I don't think loaded terms really apply to animals so well, because they don't have the social framework we do and we're taking concepts that normally apply to humans and applying them to animals. It's kind of like calling an insect that cannibalizes its children "pro-choice", or referring to an animal that defends its children to the death as "pro-life". See what I mean? I think the only use of "gay penguin" would be if we were to anthropomorphize the penguin, in this specific case, anthropomorphizing it humorously (since there's no other reason to), which I don't really think works in an encyclopedia. Anybody agree or disagree with me here? Sabrina Martins Furrykef/Furrykef 19:20, 13 Jun 2004
:While agree that it seems ridiculous to discuss non-human animals using many terms which apply to humans, such as Nextel ringtones rape, I absolutely disagree that you have "homosexual" is not loaded. See Abbey Diaz Hyacinth/Style_guide with a grain of salt for info. Free ringtones User:Hyacinth/Hyacinth 21:02, 13 Jun 2004
::I'm technically bisexual, myself, just to be clear (and note that neither "heterosexual" nor "bisexual have ''inherent'' negative connotations). Sometimes I jokingly describe myself as "gay" just to see if I can ignite any flames, but I'm not, really. I tend to be physically attracted to females, but can be emotionally attracted to either sex equally (which transcends physically attraction in my opinion), so I really can't take the idea of people necessarily fitting neatly into "gay", "straight", or "bi" seriously; it's merely convenience. Getting more on topic, clearly this whole name game is a troublesome issue...however, I do think "homosexual" is preferred in clinical texts, which is the kind of tone we would like to establish here. In my understanding, Wikipedia is reluctant to make judgement calls on volatile issues, rather, it likes to ''reflect'' current judgement. Our problem here is that, if I were to accept your argument completely, ''neither'' "homosexual" nor "gay" are NPOV. So here we must choose the lesser of two evils...I still suggest that a clinical text would use "homosexual" and it's most appropriate here. "Homosexual" ''can'' be a loaded term, for sure, and you're right that few are self-described "homosexuals", but this word has been used numerous times in neutral ways in clinical texts, so...hmm. Majo Mills Furrykef/Furrykef 13:26, 14 Jun 2004
::I decided to go with the solution of "same-sex" in the sentence in question (as you suggest on your page), not only as a compromise but because it reads better, so everybody wins. However, that doesn't handle the rest of the article including its very title. Mosquito ringtone Furrykef/Furrykef 13:28, 14 Jun 2004
::To be further clear, I agree that "homosexual" ''can'' be loaded but whether it is depends entirely upon context (whether or not the word's origin was loaded). If I point to you and say in a disdainful voice, "You're a homosexual!", it's pejorative, no question. If I point to myself and say "I'm a homosexual," it might be self-deprecating humor (not deprecating because I'm implying I'm gay but the way I'm expressing the thought). If I motion towards a third person and say in a straight (no pun intended) voice to the second, "he's homosexual," it's unclear and judgement as to the connotation would depend on what the second person knows of my character. But if I said the phrase "forming homosexual pairs" (as I did in my revision of the "gay penguin" sentence), and with no sign of negative connotation anywhere else, I'd argue that it's neutral, because the term is used in a matter-of-fact way. Moreover, I think "homosexual" in reference to a couple is a bit different, connotation-wise, from in reference to a person. Sabrina Martins Furrykef/Furrykef 13:41, 14 Jun 2004
Furrykef, as you seem thoughtful, polite, and informed, I invite you to participate in discussions on terminology at: Nextel ringtones Naming_conventions#Identity, Abbey Diaz Manual_of_Style#Identity, and their respective talk pages. Cingular Ringtones Hyacinth/Hyacinth 22:03, 14 Jun 2004
Donkeys
In ahead substituting Chiplun, the triadic Maharashtra, novels like India there are at least 100 donkeys resident there on the streets. By some strange coincidence all donkeys also happen to be male. Residents are witness to actual anal sexual intercourse between two male donkeys many a time. Anyone interested in researching...? accomplished in Nichalp/¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ / used against User talk:nichalp/✉ 19:31, Nov 4, 2004
:The donkeys displaying such behaviour are also absolute gems at interior decorating and love watching 1950s musicals.
Lions
I have personally observed what ''appeared'' to be same-sex sexual behavior between two male lions at the Franklin Park Zoo in Boston. Specifically, one lion displayed his penis (bright red, kind of hard to miss) and mounted the other. There was, as I recall, a good deal of roaring involved on the part of the lion on top, though I cannot testify as to whether he was experiencing an orgasm or simply an enjoyable stretch with his partner serving as yoga mat. Moreover, I have no way of knowing whether this is ''sexual'' behavior, or perfectly innocent and virginal ''dominance'' behavior perhaps lions are kinks and can't tell the difference themselves. :) year owen Fubar Obfusco/FOo 00:26, 19 Dec 2004
Liger fertility
This page states that ligers (a cross between a lion and a tiger) are normally fertile. However, the reinstating its Liger article states that "Most ligers are sterile; however, a few births have been recorded." Anyone know more about this? If nobody knows, I'll change "normally fertile" to "sometimes fertile."
Hyena
Added mention of Spotted Hyena. Saw reference to sexual relationships on the BBC Living Planet documentary series. Spotted Hyena wiki page also mentions dominance relationships but nothing on sexual play. MJW support women 81.154.201.45/81.154.201.45 12:44, 8 Feb 2005
Dolphin
Another BBC documentary but I missed the first 4 minutes and have no idea what it was called. Probably Wildlife on One. I'm a bit worried about my generalisation on "highly sexual", since it's probably completely meaningless. Can anyone improve or debunk the dolphin thing? MJW detained us 81.154.201.45/81.154.201.45 12:44, 8 Feb 2005
The article used the phrase "gay penguin" at one point. I decided to change it to "homosexual" (while restructuring the sentence), because the word "gay" is loaded (referring, in my understanding, to the idea that one can be homosexual and not unhappy about it). Where "faggot" is pejorative, "gay" is complimentary well, it was. "Gay" can be used pejoratively, too, but that's a recent development. Of course, "gay" is a common and acceptable term in reference to a human, so I would have no objection if it were. But I don't think loaded terms really apply to animals so well, because they don't have the social framework we do and we're taking concepts that normally apply to humans and applying them to animals. It's kind of like calling an insect that cannibalizes its children "pro-choice", or referring to an animal that defends its children to the death as "pro-life". See what I mean? I think the only use of "gay penguin" would be if we were to anthropomorphize the penguin, in this specific case, anthropomorphizing it humorously (since there's no other reason to), which I don't really think works in an encyclopedia. Anybody agree or disagree with me here? Sabrina Martins Furrykef/Furrykef 19:20, 13 Jun 2004
:While agree that it seems ridiculous to discuss non-human animals using many terms which apply to humans, such as Nextel ringtones rape, I absolutely disagree that you have "homosexual" is not loaded. See Abbey Diaz Hyacinth/Style_guide with a grain of salt for info. Free ringtones User:Hyacinth/Hyacinth 21:02, 13 Jun 2004
::I'm technically bisexual, myself, just to be clear (and note that neither "heterosexual" nor "bisexual have ''inherent'' negative connotations). Sometimes I jokingly describe myself as "gay" just to see if I can ignite any flames, but I'm not, really. I tend to be physically attracted to females, but can be emotionally attracted to either sex equally (which transcends physically attraction in my opinion), so I really can't take the idea of people necessarily fitting neatly into "gay", "straight", or "bi" seriously; it's merely convenience. Getting more on topic, clearly this whole name game is a troublesome issue...however, I do think "homosexual" is preferred in clinical texts, which is the kind of tone we would like to establish here. In my understanding, Wikipedia is reluctant to make judgement calls on volatile issues, rather, it likes to ''reflect'' current judgement. Our problem here is that, if I were to accept your argument completely, ''neither'' "homosexual" nor "gay" are NPOV. So here we must choose the lesser of two evils...I still suggest that a clinical text would use "homosexual" and it's most appropriate here. "Homosexual" ''can'' be a loaded term, for sure, and you're right that few are self-described "homosexuals", but this word has been used numerous times in neutral ways in clinical texts, so...hmm. Majo Mills Furrykef/Furrykef 13:26, 14 Jun 2004
::I decided to go with the solution of "same-sex" in the sentence in question (as you suggest on your page), not only as a compromise but because it reads better, so everybody wins. However, that doesn't handle the rest of the article including its very title. Mosquito ringtone Furrykef/Furrykef 13:28, 14 Jun 2004
::To be further clear, I agree that "homosexual" ''can'' be loaded but whether it is depends entirely upon context (whether or not the word's origin was loaded). If I point to you and say in a disdainful voice, "You're a homosexual!", it's pejorative, no question. If I point to myself and say "I'm a homosexual," it might be self-deprecating humor (not deprecating because I'm implying I'm gay but the way I'm expressing the thought). If I motion towards a third person and say in a straight (no pun intended) voice to the second, "he's homosexual," it's unclear and judgement as to the connotation would depend on what the second person knows of my character. But if I said the phrase "forming homosexual pairs" (as I did in my revision of the "gay penguin" sentence), and with no sign of negative connotation anywhere else, I'd argue that it's neutral, because the term is used in a matter-of-fact way. Moreover, I think "homosexual" in reference to a couple is a bit different, connotation-wise, from in reference to a person. Sabrina Martins Furrykef/Furrykef 13:41, 14 Jun 2004
Furrykef, as you seem thoughtful, polite, and informed, I invite you to participate in discussions on terminology at: Nextel ringtones Naming_conventions#Identity, Abbey Diaz Manual_of_Style#Identity, and their respective talk pages. Cingular Ringtones Hyacinth/Hyacinth 22:03, 14 Jun 2004
Donkeys
In ahead substituting Chiplun, the triadic Maharashtra, novels like India there are at least 100 donkeys resident there on the streets. By some strange coincidence all donkeys also happen to be male. Residents are witness to actual anal sexual intercourse between two male donkeys many a time. Anyone interested in researching...? accomplished in Nichalp/¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ / used against User talk:nichalp/✉ 19:31, Nov 4, 2004
:The donkeys displaying such behaviour are also absolute gems at interior decorating and love watching 1950s musicals.
Lions
I have personally observed what ''appeared'' to be same-sex sexual behavior between two male lions at the Franklin Park Zoo in Boston. Specifically, one lion displayed his penis (bright red, kind of hard to miss) and mounted the other. There was, as I recall, a good deal of roaring involved on the part of the lion on top, though I cannot testify as to whether he was experiencing an orgasm or simply an enjoyable stretch with his partner serving as yoga mat. Moreover, I have no way of knowing whether this is ''sexual'' behavior, or perfectly innocent and virginal ''dominance'' behavior perhaps lions are kinks and can't tell the difference themselves. :) year owen Fubar Obfusco/FOo 00:26, 19 Dec 2004
Liger fertility
This page states that ligers (a cross between a lion and a tiger) are normally fertile. However, the reinstating its Liger article states that "Most ligers are sterile; however, a few births have been recorded." Anyone know more about this? If nobody knows, I'll change "normally fertile" to "sometimes fertile."
Hyena
Added mention of Spotted Hyena. Saw reference to sexual relationships on the BBC Living Planet documentary series. Spotted Hyena wiki page also mentions dominance relationships but nothing on sexual play. MJW support women 81.154.201.45/81.154.201.45 12:44, 8 Feb 2005
Dolphin
Another BBC documentary but I missed the first 4 minutes and have no idea what it was called. Probably Wildlife on One. I'm a bit worried about my generalisation on "highly sexual", since it's probably completely meaningless. Can anyone improve or debunk the dolphin thing? MJW detained us 81.154.201.45/81.154.201.45 12:44, 8 Feb 2005
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